In this Q&A with The Texas Lawbook, Tenet’s Marita Covarrubias and Toyota North America’s Derek Lipscombe discuss the traits they seek in outside counsel, what outside counsel needs to know when working with them, how their jobs have changed over three decades and being parents to an amazing son with special needs.
Texas Lawbook: How has the world of labor and employment litigation changed during your career?
Marita Covarrubias: I like to believe that over the last 25 years most leaders have become more cognizant of the laws that are intended to protect employees in the workplace. For that reason, for the most part, litigation has become more nuanced. So in the discrimination space, your bad actors are not going to engage in the blatant acts they might have 50 years ago but may engage in conduct that violates the law in more subtle ways, i.e. exclusion from conversations, jokes that are just at the edge of what is seen as offensive. Employees are also more educated and, at least in the healthcare space, I feel that people will advocate for themselves more if they feel policies and laws are violated.
Derek Lipscombe: The amount of litigation hellholes has expanded. More and more juries have issued large awards in employment cases, including some significant ones in Dallas County. In the past, we would be concerned about employment litigation in certain states, e.g., California, New York, West Virginia. But that map has clearly expanded, making arbitration even more beneficial to employers. However, at the same time, arbitration is under attack. And, it’s not necessarily a Democrats vs. Republicans issue. So it will be interesting to see whether or not employment-related arbitration is still effective 5 to 10 years from now. On the traditional labor side, it has become more and more partisan, with large pendulum swings affecting both employees and employers depending on the administration in the White House, making it increasingly difficult for employers to predict whether their actions will be deemed a violation, e.g., it may not have been a violation when it occurred, but depending on the administration in power it may be by the time it is adjudicated.
Lawbook: What has been your biggest challenge during your time at Tenet?
Covarrubias: Delivering bad news. Twenty years ago, I had to tell our leaders of a huge ruling against us in a case I had inherited. I can still feel the pit in my stomach when I made that call. It does prompt me to make sure that I am always candid with our leaders as to the risks in litigation and potential consequences to decisions we make. Over the years, there have been other instances where rulings have not gone in our favor, but I don’t think our business teams have been surprised with the outcomes because I have done the work to make sure we are ready for all possible outcomes.
Lawbook: What has been your best day at Tenet?
Covarrubias: The days when I see my advice has been taken and a problem has been resolved. By way of example, some time ago a hospital HR leader reached out to me because she had a long-term employee who had developed MS and their physical mobility was impacted. She was concerned that she could not accommodate his needs and they would have to terminate him. We walked through our obligations under the ADA, but more importantly I got her to think out of the box for alternative ways for the employee to do his job. I remember how happy she was when she realized there were options and when she reported back that she had spoken to his manager who agreed to making changes that would allow him to continue to work. When you are working for a company with 100,000 employees, it can be easy to fall into rote approaches when dealing with challenges, and I am so happy when I can be part of the process where we find a solution that actually works for the individuals.
Lawbook: What do you look for in hiring outside counsel?
Covarrubias: I value practical advice, thinking out of the box and tenacity.
Lawbook: What does outside counsel need to know about working with you?
Covarrubias: I can be tough, but I will always support the people who I ask to work on our matters. I have worked with many attorneys over the years, and I have stuck with the people who don’t see our interactions as a single case but rather an opportunity to cultivate a long-term relationship with the company.
Lawbook: Derek, I’ve heard you talk about personal issues of discrimination that you faced growing up and as a young lawyer. Do you mind telling us about those and how it shaped you as a lawyer and a leader?
Lipscombe: For years I have been able to pass. Not that I’ve wanted to, but I don’t wear a sign that lets people know that I’m mixed. As I was raised by my mom and my stepfather, who are both Black, and grew up in a Black Baptist church, and we owned the local Black bar, I identified as being Black. But many people didn’t see that, which was fine by me as I wasn’t looking for some kind of step up or extra help. However, there was a couple of issues that I dealt with early on in my career which were reminders of the need for more diversity in the law. I have worked hard on those efforts throughout my career in ways to expand the pipeline. One example is the work that I have done at the DISD Judge Barefoot Sanders Law Magnet in South Dallas for more than 10 years, where I have provided pro bono training to students — Street Law — and sat on its site-based decision-making committee. It is my hope that these efforts have helped to build the pipeline for future generations of lawyers.
Lawbook: Tell us about your family and its importance to you.
Covarrubias: With the challenges of my role, I have wanted to make sure I have had time with my kids. All three of my children are amazing and have been an absolute joy for me. Eli, our middle son, has special needs, and in the early years, his health needs required significant attention. He had a stroke as a baby, struggled with seizures and ultimately had two brain surgeries. He has been seizure-free for over 10 years, and we found a wonderful school for him here in Dallas. He is the center of our family and reminds us all the time how important the gift of being together is, which has prompted me to focus more internally than on public service.
Click here to read the Lawbook power couple profile on Marita Covarrubias and Derek Lipscombe.