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Even before the pandemic it, Mark Shaw had seen his share of crises in the airline industry. But as chief legal and regulatory officer for Southwest Airlines, nothing quite prepared him for the challenges of 2020 and the global shutdown of travel in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
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But in many ways his earlier experience with crisis trained him to endure the worst when it happened. And one of the most important was having longterm relationships with outside counsel.
Mark Curriden, founder of The Texas Lawbook, grabbed an opportunity to chat with Shaw about what he looks for when hiring a law firm: what he values most in making those decisions, as well as what turns him off in working with other lawyers.
For Mark Curriden’s full feature profile of Mark Shaw, Click Here.
Texas Lawbook: What are the most important factors for you in choosing outside counsel?
Mark Shaw: During my time at GE Capital, which was my first real exposure to an in-house setting focusing on myriad business issues and hiring outside counsel, I learned from the then-GC that the two most important factors in hiring outside counsel was that you hire them when you either don’t have the internal resources to handle an issue or project, or an internal expertise to handle an issue or project. I still believe those are the two most important factors in choosing outside counsel – meaning we look for outside counsel who have the resources to handle an issue or project that we might not have, or we look for outside counsel who are the top experts for the issue or project we are facing. Sometimes you need both.
At Southwest, I think a third and almost equally important factor for us are outside counsel who really want to establish a long-term partnership with our legal department and our company. So outside counsel who look at the long-term, big picture, who we get along with, who have a sense of humor and know how to work hard but also have fun, are the ones we tend to stick with the longest. And they need to be as passionate about Southwest and our mission as we all are.
Texas Lawbook: Any pet peeves that you have in dealing with outside counsel?
Mark Shaw: Lack of responsiveness and conflict waivers.
Texas Lawbook: How important is diversity in your selection of outside counsel?
Mark Shaw: I think diversity and inclusion are important throughout Southwest, from our board of directors on down, and it is something that we’ve always talked about and focused on, with an even stronger focus and conversation around these topics today. That said, when it comes to selecting outside counsel, I would go back to what I said above – I believe it is our obligation as lawyers for Southwest to provide the company with the best possible representation and advice on a given issue or project. Fortunately, with the many firms we work with around the country and internationally, we’ve had the opportunity to achieve those goals while also being able to work with a very diverse selection of lawyers. But I know we can always do better, not just with hiring outside counsel, but also making sure we continue to work on having a diverse slate of candidates when we are hiring for internal legal positions.
Texas Lawbook: How do you feel about today’s $1,000 hourly rates and alternative fee agreements?
Mark Shaw: It is about value for me. If a lawyer charges me $1,000 an hour, it seems like a lot. But if that lawyer has the expertise to answer my question quickly, then it is well worth it. I have seen alternative fee agreements work in some circumstances, but not always.
Texas Lawbook: Are there any fun travel perks for being the GC at SWA?
Mark Shaw: I get to fly on Southwest Airlines all the time! But seriously, in my role I am fortunate to get the opportunity to travel quite a bit, and in my role working with governmental affairs over the past several years, I’ve gotten to spend a lot of time in D.C., which I greatly enjoy, as well as having the opportunity to travel around our system and visit with our outstanding front-line employees.
Texas Lawbook: Did you have a relationship with Herb Kelleher? Do you have one or two particular memories or experiences with him that are your favorite?
Mark Shaw: I did get a chance to get to know Herb over the years, but I wish I had gotten more opportunities than I had. He was an amazing person to be around and really was the person you’ve always read about and heard about. Absolutely a great leader, communicator and businessman, but also incredible fun! I think my favorite memory of Herb was the night I got a last-minute invite to have dinner with Herb, Colleen Barrett and several other Southwest colleagues at a local restaurant. It was a small group, and I ended up sitting right between Herb and Colleen. For several hours, I got to listen to both of them tell great stories about their lives and their lives at Southwest. An incredible evening.