Premium Subscriber Q&A
In an exclusive Texas Lawbook Q&A with Sarah Hurt, the general counsel at the Jefferson Energy Companies squares off on the kinds of challenges facing in-house counsel, her pet peeves about outside counsel and what lawyers need to know about her if they want her business.
Texas Lawbook: You have been in-house for seven years. How has the job or role of in-house changed in those years?
Sarah Hurt: I don’t think there have been dramatic changes in the role itself: a good legal function should still have the same basic priorities including optimizing external legal spend, supporting and adding value to all aspects of the business, and providing a legal perspective in strategic commercial discussions. There have been areas where I think we have all seen companies taking a more active interest, such as cybersecurity and ESG; there have also been changes in the energy market and changes to the political landscape; but, despite those shifting factors, I believe the key drivers in the in-house legal function itself remain pretty consistent.
For Mark Curriden’s full profile of Sarah Hurt Click Here.
Lawbook: What do you see as the most important legal and business issues facing corporate legal departments such as yours in the year or two ahead?
Hurt: If tough market conditions continue, that will put pressure on legal departments to tighten up external spend and may make it harder to budget for attracting and developing legal talent. I think hybrid working will also be a new challenge (or opportunity) for corporate legal departments to handle, which may present some issues unique to legal – for example, I find that being in the office in person allows me to hear about issues and deals much earlier than when working from home, which is obviously better for planning and issue-spotting. However, there are significant advantages and efficiencies to remote working, and I think it will take a couple of years for us all to find a hybrid sweet spot that can provide the best of both worlds.
Lawbook: What do you look for in hiring outside counsel?
Hurt: I hire outside counsel for one of three reasons: time, expertise or resources. In other words, if something is needed fast and someone in-house could do it themselves but they have too much on their plate; or if there is something specialized that we don’t have the knowledge or experience to handle; or if a deal will need an army of associates to do comprehensive diligence or similar, then I will go to outside counsel. It is important to me that outside counsel have the relevant business, commercial or industry acumen — and that they be willing to ask and learn about the business reasons behind the specific advice we may be seeking. A targeted response that speaks to the business need behind the question is usually more useful than a general response, which can sometimes inadvertently cover irrelevant ground. It can be hard to justify the legal expense of advice that goes beyond what we actually need. In turn, it is my job to make sure outside counsel are given the full opportunity to understand the business context. I highly value outside counsel who ask plenty of questions up front to make sure we’ve developed that commercial understanding.
Lawbook: Do you have pet peeves regarding outside counsel?
Hurt: I wouldn’t say it goes so far as to be a pet peeve, but I don’t like the habit of excluding junior associates from calls or meetings; I know some clients prefer only interacting with partners and only seeing the bare minimum number of lawyers at meetings, but I am a fan of seeing and hearing from everyone who is actually working on the deal. I remember being a junior associate and I was fortunate to be allowed to be visible to clients from the very start. I think that adds a lot to a developing lawyer’s experience and confidence and will help them be a better lawyer in the long run. So, I feel a bit disappointed when I see an associate’s name I don’t recognize on a legal bill. I suppose I like to be able to get a sense of whether the people doing the work are enjoying it or not.
Lawbook: What does outside counsel need to know about you?
Hurt: That I know what it’s like to be outside counsel! I appreciate the long hours and late nights, and I will never ask for that if it isn’t absolutely necessary. Part of my job is to manage expectations internally, both as to cost and as to time. I know what is reasonable and I’ve been on the receiving end of unreasonable requests from clients; I don’t want to be that kind of client. Also, I know the limits of my expertise and experience – I want to be told if I’m wrong, if I’m asking the wrong questions, or if there is some other way of doing the thing I am trying to do.
Lawbook: How important is diversity in your hiring of outside counsel? Have you ever fired a law firm for its lack of diversity or would you under what conditions?
Hurt: I haven’t had to address specific diversity failings with any outside counsel. I am gratified that today firms, more often than not, do focus on diversity as a key principle. I don’t apply a formal diversity policy in selecting outside counsel but it is certainly something that is important to me personally, and I wouldn’t hire a firm if I didn’t believe diversity to be important to them.
Lawbook: As law firms and corporate legal departments struggle with diversity, what do you think are the two or three most important elements to achieving diversity and inclusion?
Hurt: I think people respond more to peer and leadership behavior than to formal requirements. So, I believe one of the most important things we can do as peers and as leaders is to demonstrate in ourselves the values we want to see in others. The more we can normalize diversity and inclusion in our everyday work life, the more it will become the path of least resistance for others to follow. On a practical level this might involve seeking and placing visible, meaningful value on a variety of perspectives. For example, why not send around the Employee Handbook and ask employees to identify any areas they think could be improved to accommodate a more diverse workforce. Involve in the conversation a variety of people who will be impacted by any decision. We need to make sure diversity and inclusion is not seen as a box to check; it should be a true recognition of the actual value – to the company or firm, and to society as a whole – that comes from listening to different experiences and different voices.
Lawbook: You became an artist during Covid. How did this happen?
Hurt: I picked up a pencil and decided to try some drawing during lockdown in 2020. I took to it right away and quickly amassed an ever-growing collection of coloring pencils, pens, watercolors, sketchbooks, canvases, acrylic paints and more. I then branched into collage, mixed media, and fiber arts, and got into weaving, knitting, embroidery, macramé and crochet. I will make art out of anything.
We had some remodeling done at home after the big freeze, and I got some leftover sheet rock, granite, cupboard doors, drawers, and pieces of wood. I’ve also got a roll of chicken wire waiting to become a piece of wall art. I also like to see what effects I can come up with using things I find around the house like makeup, glue, salt, coffee. I’ve “painted” a landscape using nothing but two lipsticks. As you can imagine, my studio space at home looks like it’s full of trash, but, when I look at it, I see ideas for a multitude of future projects. Most of my artwork is about storytelling, in particular the storytelling involved in forming and recalling memories, and in creating a sense of selfhood. I often use and re-use the same elements for pairs or sets of pieces, to represent, for example, how two or more people could have the “same” experience that would in fact always be different for each of them because their background and perspective are inherently different.